The Motown sound and the Stax sound

The Beatles at STAX?

My friend Jon wrote: If you need ideas for topics to write about, how about a piece on the difference between the Motown sound and the Stax sound?

I wrote back, glibly,  “The short answer is migration, but I’ll think about that.”

Rob Bowman wrote in Soulville, U.S.A.: The Story of Stax Records, about the differences circa 1963: “At Motown in Detroit, Berry Gordy was more than happy to put each one of his artists through an in-house charm school with the goal being that each artist could fit into middle-class white America’s image of respectable deportment, style, and grace.

Jim Stewart of STAX was not as ruthlessly ambitious as Gordy, nor did he have the vision to build the type of vertically integrated empire that Motown became.” I also think geography does have something to do with it. Stax leaned into its Mississippi Delta roots.

1964

Bowman re: 1964: “While STAX was struggling, Motown was on its ascendancy.” In retrospect, 1964 was remarkable not just for the Beatles’ invasion of America but for the string of hits by the Supremes and many others on the Detroit label. Indeed, in ’64, the Supremes put out an album, A Bit of Liverpool, which I used to own, which features five Lennon-McCartney songs among the 11 tracks.

“The sign outside Motown probably proudly proclaimed the company ‘Hitsville USA.'” I made my pilgrimage to the site in 1998.

“The marquee outside the STAX Studio, on the other hand, was adorned with the words Soulsville USA.” (STAX artists also eventually covered the Beatles, but generally sound like STAX.) The Beatles even considered recording an album at STAX in 1966, but it proved logistically impossible. 

North and South

“These slogans perfectly sum up the diametrically opposed aesthetic and operating philosophy of the two companies. Gordy was a product of the urban industrial North… and autocratic to the bone. He ran his operation very much from a master plan.

“Stewart, on the other hand, was the product of the rural fraternal South. Although he wanted to make money, he could easily be content with what seemed to be a modicum of success, not caring a wit about making further profits…

“In what had to be the greatest irony of the STAX story, Stewart was always loudly championing keeping the company sound as ‘black’ as possible while various black writers and later co-owner Al Bell were interested in crossover success, Stewart seemingly was not the least bit and interesting interested if crossing over meant compromising what he was gradually coming to understand as the Stax sound.”

Sidebar: I must note yet again the importance of Estelle Axton, Jim Stewart’s sister, and the AX in STAX, as a force in developing the sound. The fact that she’s not in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame – Jim Stewart was inducted in 2002, and Berry Gordy in 1998 – continues to be a travesty.

1966

Bowman, 1966: “Isaac Hayes and David Porter crafted what proved to be the breakthrough record for Sam [Moore] and Dave [Prater] with You Don’t Know Like I Know. Sam and Dave charted, hitting a giddy number seven on the R and B charts while scraping the lower reaches of the pop listening to #90

“Oddly enough, Sam Moore hated the song! ‘Fifty per cent of the songs that were presented to me at STAX I didn’t like,’ exclaimed Sam. ‘I remember saying to myself…it’s hard singing. I wanted to do stuff like Sam [Cooke] and Willie [John] and Jackie [Wilson].

“Hayes and Porter wrote and initially rehearsed the song with Sam and Dave. The melodies would be set in a comfortable lower key, but when it came to recording, they would raise the key.

Porter: “I felt if you were right above where you could be comfortably, then the anxiety and the frustrations and the soul I thought needed to be captured out of those songs would come through.

“I always noticed with the Motown records the singers are so comfortable the melodies are so comfortable one is to have a little different kind of edge and I thought that that gave us that struggling for you to get there would only enhance you to get the soul even though they would be pissed at me pushing them like that they would attempt to do it and they would work I didn’t think you would really doing the record with any kind of soul unless there was some sweat.”

Breaking out

Music critic Joel Francis was asked about the validity of this opinion: “I tend to oversimplify in the following way: Motown is sweet and smooth; Marvin Gaye is Motown’s archetypal vocalist. Stax is raw and gritty; Otis Redding is its archetypal vocalist.” Of course, these things are more complicated. 

Eventually, Motown got “less comfortable.” War, initially recorded by the Temptations, but Gordy thought the song would ruin the group’s cultivated image. So he allowed Edwin Starr, lower on the roster, to record it. It went to #1. Likewise, Marvin Gaye’s music, beginning with the album What’s Going On, made Berry uncomfortable, but it was released and was a hit. Stevie Wonder’s series of albums in the 1970s falls within the same category.

So, I guess, especially in later years, the Motown “formula” was modified when the music required. 

Songs that mention other songs

Rick Astley?

  • In popular music, there are approximately 10 zillion songs that mention other songs in popular music. One of my favorites is Sly and the Family Stone’s Thank You, which references several Sly songs: 
  • Dance to the musicAll night longEvery day peopleSing A Simple Song
  • The Beatles appear frequently in this list. Glass Onion mentions several songs by the group. All You Need Is Love lifts a snippet of She Loves You; similarly, the Rutles’ Love Life echoes Hold My Hand. John Lennon famously mentions Sgt Pepper and Yesterday in his How Do You Sleep? Harry Nilsson’s You Can’t Do That references several Beatles songs.
  • Perhaps my favorite linkage is the one that starts with Neil Young’s Southern Man, which is name-checked in Lynyrd Skynyrd’s Sweet Home Alabama, which in turn is quoted in Play It All Night Long by Warren Zevon.
  • That Rockpile guy
  • However, one that I somehow managed to miss is Nick Lowe’s All Men Are Liars. I have the album Party Of One, on which it appears. But until Lowe’s birthday at the end of March, I managed to miss this particular reference:

Do you remember Rick Astley?He had a big fat hit that was ghastlyHe said I’m never gonna give you up or let you downWell, I’m here to tell ya that dick’s a clownThough he was just a boy when he made that vowI’d bet it all that he knows by now

Some other songs:

Tom Petty’s “Runnin’ Down a Dream”  (Del Shannon’s Runaway)

The Kinks’ Destroyer  (The Kinks’ Lola  and All Day and All of the Night

The Stills-Young Band’s Long May You Run (The Beach Boys’ Caroline, No)

Arthur Conley’s Sweet Soul Music (a bunch of soul classics by Otis Redding, Jackie Wilson & the Miracles)

What are your favorite songs that namecheck other songs?

Beatles songs not on US Capitol albums

adding songs to the CDs?

Every February, I play the American versions of the Beatles albums. Why is that? George was the first Beatle to visit the United States when he visited his sister Louise before Beatlemania broke. George’s birthday is in February.

Anyway, I’m reminded again of The Beatles songs, which were not on the US Capitol albums while the group was still together. I grew up on the Capitol and later Apple albums; for the former, it was what I got with my Capitol Record Club membership in 1966 and 1967.

I’m not talking about different versions of the same song, such as the single Love Me Do or even Sie Liebt Dich, the German version of She Loves You. The latter song appeared in the Rarities versions (1978-UK, 1980-US).

Misery and There’s A Place were both on the first UK album, Please Please Me, and the US Vee-Jay album, Introducing the Beatles. I heard them in the Beatles cartoons. But they didn’t make it onto The Early Beatles, Capitol’s belated version of Introducing. They finally showed up on the US Rarities.

From Me To You – a bust of a Vee-Jay single in the US in 1963, though it got up to #41 in ’64. Its B-side, Thank You Girl, was on The Beatles’ Second Album. From Me To You is not on  The Early Beatles, either. It appears on the Red album (1973), functionally a greatest hits album for 1962-1966. It is the Beatles song I have the most difficult time recalling.

Movie non-soundtrack

A Hard Day’s Night—The movie soundtrack for the first Beatles movie was on the United Artists label in the United States. Capitol could use some of the songs – they did on the Something New album – but could not label the collection a soundtrack. I Should Have Known Better and Can’t Buy Me Love finally appeared on the Beatles Again/Hey Jude album. A Hard Day’s Night is first on the Red album.

I’m Down – The B-side of the Help single appears on the Rock ‘n’ Roll Music Collection (1976), the only new song on the double LP. I knew the song existed from the live version on the TV broadcast of The Beatles at Shea Stadium. It would have fit nicely on the Yesterday and Today album.

The Inner Light,  the B-side of Lady Madonna, and You Know My Name (Look Up the Number), the B-side of Let It Be appear on both Rarities versions.

All of them, save You Know My Name, could/should have been on The Beatles Again.

Ah, the Beatles CDs

Of course, everything is made right in the CD era, using the British LPs plus Past Masters 1 and 2. I remember when the CDs first came out. There was speculation that the singles would be added to the albums. But why would they do that, aside from the fact that the early CDs were less than 40 minutes long and had a capacity of more than 70 minutes?

Still, From Me To You/Thank You Girl and She Loves You/I’ll Get You would easily fit on Please Please Me. One could throw in Sie liebt dich.

I Want To Hold Your Hand/This Boy plus Komm gib mir deine Hand might have appeared on With The Beatles; the first two were on the US near-equivalent Meet The Beatles.

The EP Long Tall Sally/I Call Your Name/Slow Down/Matchbox could have augmented A Hard Day’s Night.

Add I Feel Fine/She’s A Woman to Beatles for Sale.

Yes, It Is (the B-side of Ticket To Ride) and I’m Down (the B-side of Help), along with the US-only Bad Boy (from Beatles VI), could be added to Help.

Also:

Day Tripper/We Can Work It Out to Rubber Soul

Paperback Writer/Rain to Revolver

Lady Madonna/The Inner Light to Magical Mystery Tour

Hey Jude/Revolution to the white album

Get Back/Don’t Bring Me Down and You Know My Name (B-side of Let It Be) to Let It Be

Ballad Of John and Yoko/Old Brown Shoe to Abbey Road

Or maybe those latter singles in that singles-heavy period needed their own collection.

March rambling: Dismantling

The Strange, Post-Partisan Popularity of the Unabomber

Used by permission of Clay Bennett, Editorial Cartoonist, Chattanooga Times Free Press

“We Are Watching the Deliberate Dismantling of American Democracy” – Heather Cox Richardson with Katie Couric

Mark Evanier has posted nearly daily a series of Fact Checks over the last month that suggest members of the regime LIE regularly, especially FOTUS.

The regime seeks to starve libraries and museums of funding. Fight back with ALA.

The executive order targeting the Smithsonian Institution will “eliminate improper, divisive, or anti-American ideology” from the institute’s museums, centers, and the National Zoo in Washington.

Pete Hegseth Sent Secret War Plans to Journalist by Accident. Here Are the Texted War Plans That He Said ‘Nobody Was Texting’ on Signal. “A reminder that various administration officials lied under oath in the Senate.”

Millions face delays as administration ends Social Security phone verification. A new policy eliminating phone verification for Social Security benefits threatens to overwhelm field offices, cut off vulnerable recipients, and accelerate efforts to privatize the system.

 Executive Order on Voting Denounced as ‘Authoritarian Power Grab’

Pentagon restores some webpages honoring minority service members but defends DEI purge.

Rights, Privileges, and Mahmoud Khalil

Decades ago, Columbia refused to pay him $400 million. The university was looking to expand. It considered and rejected property owned by djt. He did not forget it.

People named in JFK assassination documents are not happy their personal information was released.

FOTUS has big dreams for the Kennedy Center but doesn’t seem to know what it does. His hostile takeover of the Washington, D.C., cultural institution will probably chase away the very people who like to attend shows there

Here’s What RFK Jr. Got Wrong About H5N1 Bird Flu— “This is Hollywood science, not real science,” one expert said

EPA Teases Evisceration of Scientific Research Office

FCC Chair Brendan Carr, FOTUS’ Media Pit Bull Is “Off the Leash”

Cory Doctorow: Twinkump Linkdump (22 Mar 2025)

How DOGE is making government almost comically inefficient

Musk tells his biggest lie yet: ‘I’ve never done anything harmful’

How Elon Musk’s DOGE Cuts Leave a Vacuum That China Can Fill: The Department of Government Efficiency is shuttering organizations that Beijing worried about most or actively sought to subvert.
IRS braces for $500bn drop in revenue as taxpayers skip filings in wake of DOGE cuts at the agency

From Catherine Rampell – WaPo:

At the IRS, employees spend Mondays queued up at shared computers to submit their DOGE-mandated “five things I did last week” emails. Meanwhile, taxpayer customer service calls go unanswered.

At the Bureau of Land Management, federal surveyors are no longer permitted to buy replacement equipment. So, when a shovel breaks at a field site, they can’t just drive to the nearest town or hardware store. Instead, work stops as employees track down one of the few managers nationwide authorized to file an official procurement form and order new parts.

At the Food and Drug Administration, leadership canceled the agency’s subscription to LexisNexis, an online reference tool that employees need to conduct regulatory research. However, some workers might not have noticed this loss yet because the agency’s incompetently planned return-to-office order this week left them too busy hunting for insufficient parking and toilet paper. (Multiple bathrooms have run out of bath tissue, employees report.)
More

The Strange, Post-Partisan Popularity of the Unabomber: When Ted Kaczynski’s manifesto appeared 30 years ago, the internet was brand-new. Now, his dark vision is finding fans who don’t remember life before the iPhone. Paragraph 173: “If the machines are permitted to make all their own decisions, we can’t make any conjectures as to the results, because it is impossible to guess how such machines might behave.”

Researchers find thriving, never-before-seen ecosystem under Antarctic ice shelf: “This is unprecedented”

Author John Green on why he wrote “Everything is Tuberculosis.”

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George Foreman, Boxing Champion and Grill Spokesperson, Dies at 76

Richard Chamberlain, King of the Melodramatic Miniseries, Dies at 90. One of my sisters had a massive crush when he played ‘Dr. Kildare’

 

Goodbye Park City: Sundance Film Festival Heading to Colorado

My Quest to Find the Owner of a Mysterious WWII Japanese Sword. “When I was a kid, I was fascinated by a traditional katana my grandfather had brought home from Japan in 1945. Years later, I decided it was time to find the heirloom’s rightful owner.”

Rita Braver will retire from ‘CBS Sunday Morning’ after 50 years at the network

The 51 Best Canadian Films of All Time

How Charles Dickens Shaped Our Vocabulary

Magnet fishing is supposed to be a wholesome hobby. Why all the beef?

In 2012, when NBC had the Super Bowl, they shot a little video to precede it and promote all their shows and stars.

In 1969, Jim Henson produced several commercials for a new potato crisp called Munchos.

Now I Know: The Supreme Court Told Me I Was Wrong and Forcing Beer into Star Wars and A Miner Revolt

MUSIC

Jesse Colin Young, Youngbloods’ Frontman, Dies at 83. Get Together was one of the very few singles I ever purchased.

Herb Alpert turns 90 today. He’s still performing. I had half of his early albums, including his first, The Lonely Bull. Here’s Herb and the Tijuana Brass on that title track

Signal Leak – Jesse Welles

You Were Not Supposed to Message It Through – Marsh Family Parody of the Bee Gees on #Signalgate

I Put Up Tariffs – Marsh Family adaptation of Bob Marley and the Wailers’ I Shot the Sheriff

Vivaldi’s Summer/Mozart’s Semplice/Mack The Knife

Get Away and three other songs – Jimi Somewhere

Berlioz’s Symphonie fantastique

Please Please Please – Sabrina Carpenter,  feat. Dolly Parton

On A Clear Day, You Can See Forever – Voctave

The Song (Love Is All) – Sadie Sink from the movie O’DESSA

Two of Hearts – Stacey Q

Mercy Mercy Me (The Ecology) – Marvin Gaye 

Under African Skies – Paul Simon

Can’t Fight This Feeling – REO Speedwagon

The Most ‘Beatles’ Beatle Song The Beatles Ever Beatled; btw, I disagree with the conclusion

Best Albums of 2025 (First Quarter)

New mashup version of Sour Milk Sea

Eric Clapton and Nicky Hopkins

My first Ask Roger Anything came from a dear friend, ADD:

Hey Roger, I wonder if you’ve heard the new mashup version of Sour Milk Sea that takes a George Harrison demo and makes it a new Beatles song featuring all of the Fab Four plus Eric Clapton? I just discovered it yesterday, and it’s pretty marvelous to my ears, like a lost track from The White Album. Here’s a link to it on YouTube.

There’s no AI involved, and if you watch as you listen, they explain how it was assembled. Love to read your thoughts on the actual end result, as well as more generally on projects like this. I actually added this track to my Beatles playlist because I think it deserves a slot among their very best songs, even though it’s not an official release.

Hope all is well with you and yours, Roger.

Alan

Thanks, Alan. Before answering, I should provide some notes for those who aren’t as Beatles-saturated as I.

From the Beatles Bible

“‘Sour Milk Sea’ was one of the demo songs recorded in May 1968. Although it was an early contender for the White Album, it was eventually given to Apple recording artist Jackie Lomax,” a fellow Liverpudlian.

Song history

George noted: “I wrote ‘Sour Milk Sea’ in Rishikesh, India.. Anyway, it’s based on Vishvasara Tantra, from Tantric art. ‘What is here is elsewhere, what is not here is nowhere’. It’s a picture, and the picture is called ‘Sour Milk Sea’ – Kalladadi Samudra in Sanskrit. I used Sour Milk Sea as the idea of – if you’re in the s**t, don’t go around moaning about it: do something about it.”

Sour Milk Sea (Esher Demo). Not incidentally, here’s a list of songs from Esher, most of which ended up on the white album. 

“The Beatles never attempted a studio version of ‘Sour Milk Sea’. It was taped by Lomax at Abbey Road on 2425, and 26 June 1968; Harrison produced the song, with Paul McCartney on bass, Ringo Starr on drums, Eric Clapton on guitar, and Nicky Hopkins on piano…

“Lomax was the first artist to sign to The Beatles’ Apple label. ‘Sour Milk Sea’ was released as a single in August 1968, with the catalogue number Apple 3.” It only went to US Pop #117, and failed to chart in the UK. Jackie Lomax included it on his album Is This What You Want?, which only reached #145 on the Billboard charts. 

Apple singles

“It was part of Apple’s “Our first four” set of singles, which also included” The Beatles’ ‘Hey Jude,’ Mary Hopkin’s ‘Those Were The Days’ [#2 for three weeks AC, #1 for six weeks AC] and the Black Dyke Mills Band’s ‘Thingumybob.’

Something called Outfake created a previous “Beatles” version of Sour Milk Sea from “the Beatles’ demo (recorded in Esher, May 1968) and Jackie Lomax’s basic track recording (which features Paul, Ringo, George, Eric Clapton, and Nicky Hopkins, recorded at Trident Studios in July 1968).”

But, Alan, the very recent version you provided is my favorite. The vocals lifted from Helter Skelter was a great touch. The video asks who plays the organ; I don’t know, but it’s likely Nicky Hopkins or Paul. 

As all the comments noted, it should have been a serious contender for the white album, but George already had his allotment of four songs. Most people had opinions about what should have been excised in favor of Sour Milk Sea. Unsurprisingly, Revolution 9 and Wild Honey Pie are popular choices. 

As to your general question about my feelings about projects like this, I’m ambivalent. I remember the conversation about the release of The Beatles’ Now and Then. It seems that a lot of folks didn’t understand that the use of AI was merely to unearth the buried John Lennon vocal that 1995 technology couldn’t access when Paul, George, and Ringo took the tape Yoko gave them. There won’t be more Beatles songs, so it’s nice that it won the Best Rock Performance Grammy

But I like some mashups of what could have been, whereas others with dead people—Natalie Cole singing Unforgettable with her late dad, Nat—seemed a bit maudlin. Hologram duets weird me out. 

Ramblin' with Roger
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