Fear an orange win

xenophobia

I fear an Orange win. While it’s been brewing in my mind for a few weeks, it is epitomized in observations made by commenters on ABC This Week on October 13.

RACHAEL BADE, ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTING POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT:  ‘We’ve been talking about women this entire election, how they’re running away from Trump. Childless cat lady comments, abortion, just Trump’s temperament in general. But… in the final weeks of this election, we are really starting to see that Donald Trump has been very successful with turning out men or at least getting them excited to vote for him.

“And not just conservative men, but men who consider themselves to be…pro-abortion rights, socially liberal men, black men, Latino men. And, you know, I was interviewing one of the more famous focus group analysts, Sarah Longwell, at “The Bulwark,” and she was talking about why, and it sounds like a lot of these men, they don’t view Donald Trump as extreme.

“You might disagree with that. They like him. They think he’s somebody that they would want to hang out with, and he has just been sort of successful and leaning into the strongman mentality that right now, with, you know, all the chaos in the Middle East, with the issues with the hurricanes, she’s hearing more and more in focus groups not just from men but also some women who are reaching for that sort of strongman mentality and starting to second-guess Harris.”

Not extreme?

SUSAN GLASSER, THE NEW YORKER STAFF WRITER: “I think this conversation we’re having, it’s really a question of who, in the end is the election about, and if people’s gaze is focused on Donald Trump, his escalatory rhetoric, I mean, some of the things we’ve seen this week are the most nakedly racist and xenophobic things I’ve ever seen from a national candidate, and that includes Donald Trump in his previous two outings.”

The notion that djt is not an extreme candidate suggests that Americans are more ahistorical people than I had already feared.

Gen. Mark Milley, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, is quoted in Bob Woodward’s new book, War. The general approaches the writer “in a state of panic about the prospect of a Trump revival. ‘No one has ever been as dangerous to this country,’ the general exclaimed. ‘I glimpsed it when I talked to you … for Peril [Woodward’s previous book], but I now know it, I now know it. … We have got to stop him! You have got to stop him! … He’s a total fascist. He is the most dangerous person to this country! … A fascist to the core!’”

Intuition

REP. MIKE JOHNSON, (R) SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES: We all know intuitively that a lot of illegals are voting in federal elections.

“Intuitively.”  The Speaker was on CBS’ Face The Nation. He must  “intuitively” know the 2020 election was “rigged” because he played a leading role in Trump’s legal effort to overturn it. He “has made statements in recent weeks suggesting that the certification of the election results is conditional.” 

How Harris Can Finish Strong

Meanwhile, New York Times columnist David Brooks notes that “Undecided voters in a Times Opinion focus group were recently asked to describe Kamala Harris’ efforts. They responded with phrases like: ‘honeymoon’s over,’ the paint is wearing off,’ ‘uninspired,’ ‘absent,’ and ‘scared to talk directly to the American people.’ Researchers who have been surveying voter sentiment as the campaign progresses found that there’s been a decline in how voters think about Harris, while sentiment toward Donald Trump has rebounded slightly since the September debate…

“The playwright David Mamet once wrote a memo to a group of fellow writers in which he reminded them that audiences ‘will not tune in to watch information.’ They will ‘only tune in and stay tuned to watch drama.’ What is drama? Mamet says it ‘is the quest of the hero to overcome those things which prevent him from achieving a specific, acute goal.’ The screenwriter Aaron Sorkin builds on that definition. He says that strong drama is built around intention and obstacle. The hero has to be seized by a strong, specific desire, and she needs to face a really big obstacle.”

Passion

“That suggests that Harris needs to show the American people her strongest, most acute, and controlling desire, the ruling passion of her soul. I know what Trump wants. He wants to dismantle the elites who he thinks have betrayed regular Americans. It’s unclear what Harris wants most deeply, other than the vague chance to do good and to be president…Candidates who are not driven by a single, specific, compelling desire become reactive. “

This aligns with what people, even those who are going to vote for her, have been saying to me about how they don’t know what she really thinks, believes, or values.

Yet she’s always working at a disadvantage. Harris’ responses to her battery of recent interviews are being scrutinized,  while djt ducked the 60 Minutes interview altogether. He hasn’t released his health records, as she has. Moreover, his supporters stand with him by ‘sussing out rhetoric from reality.’ In other words, many of his loyal fans don’t believe he’ll do what he says he’ll do. 

“What’s extraordinary… is the dire and graphic nature of his language.”

More to the point, as an opinion piece in the Boston Globe says: “He’s running a closing-days campaign fueled by falsehood – and it could work. After all, as he demonstrated with his Big Lie about the 2020 election, even his most far-fetched claims can race to the far corners of the country before fact-checkers are able to set off in persuasive pursuit.

“From last week’s assertion that Aurora, Colorado, and other towns have been ‘invaded and conquered’ by ‘vicious and bloodthirsty criminals‘ to his recent description of illegal immigrants as ‘savages,’ ‘predators,’ and ‘animals’ who want to ‘rape, pillage, thieve, plunder, and kill’ Americans, to his ominous warning that migrants ‘grab young girls and slice them up right in front of their parents…,’ it’s trademark Trump, a dark, roiling, racially-tinged rhetorical torrent, unlike anything we’ve seen in any presidential campaign in modern American history.

“That dystopian rhetoric is an obvious attempt to create fear sufficient to move voters beyond his enormous character faults and his well-documented assault on democracy and get them to conclude that however unsavory they find him, he’s the strongman the country needs to solve its supposed problems.”

For reasons involving his cult of personality, 45 is graded on a curve, and he could win in November—probably not the popular vote, but quite possibly the Electoral College. I’d SO love to be wrong.

Finnish kids recognize fake news

AI manipulation

On CBS Sunday Morning, which continues to be one of my favorite programs, there was a September 30 segment about how Finnish kids recognize fake news. “Being able to identify hoaxes, avoid scams, and debunk propaganda is a civic skill required in today’s information society. That’s why the curriculum of students in Finland includes media literacy lessons, aimed at safeguarding a precious resource: the truth.”

There’s a similar story on CNA. Finland’s war against fake news starts at a young age. “With an ever-growing number of people getting their news online, being able to work out what’s true – and what’s not – has never been more important. In a world of digital disinformation, one country is often held up as the benchmark for having a media-literate population. Finland has topped the Media Literacy Index for the seven years the ranking system has been in existence.”

In 2019, CNN reported on the topic. “Finland is winning the war on fake news. What it’s learned may be crucial to Western democracy.”

I will state the obvious here: we need this in the United States, and not just for children. As a citizen and a librarian, misinformation, and especially disinformation, distresses me.

I posted on Facebook a visual about the myth when people say, “Do your own research!” This post is credited to Linda Gamble Spadaro, a licensed medical mental health counselor in Florida. “You didn’t research anything. You read or watched a video, most likely with little or no objectivity. You came across something in your algorithm-manipulated feed, something that jived with your implicit biases and served your confirmation bias, and subconsciously applied your emotional filters and called it proof.”

My buddy J. Eric Smith wrote about this topic 14 years ago, and it’s still dead on.

Looking for nonsense

I pulled out my phone on October 2 to check my Facebook feed.

Rock Music World: “Ringo Starr turns 84 today!” No, he didn’t. He is 84, but his birthday is July 7. At least 78 people shared the post. Various feeds list the birthdays of actors and musicians, but they are often incorrect. You may think of this as inconsequential, but I guess I’m old-school enough to think that FACTS MATTER, especially easily verifiable ones. (Ssh: I’ve been known to use books.)  A Google search would get you to Ringo’s website, but every other source in the search, such as Modern Drummer, confirms the real date.

Some guy from New Jersey is sharing something I’ve seen before: [SIC] “I’m no mathematician, but I’m not bad at math. Can someone please explain? AOC went into office broke and in five years she’s worth $29 million. on a $155K salary??? When does her investigation begin?” Never. Check out FactCheck, Politifact, USA Today, and other sources.

Then there was the photo showing djt in a lifejacket helping storm victims in floodwaters after Hurricane Helene. One Facebook user posted of the picture, “I think we should all repost it!!!!” Another person added, “‘He lives and cares for people, all people!” And “I don’t think Facebook wants this picture on Facebook. They have been deleting it.” The post received more than 150,000 shares in just 16 hours.” And it’s FALSE. “Odd-looking hands and fingers are one sign of AI manipulation in photos.”

Some folks need to make a minimum of effort to verify before they share.

The worst

Unfortunately, the biggest purveyor of falsehood, particularly in light of the Hurricane Helene disaster, is the 45th president. He lies about how money has been funneled from potential hurricane victims to immigrants. Not only does he harm the people who could use the help, but he also foments despair and immigrant phobia.

Extracted from Heather Cox Richardson, “Letters From an American,” 9/27/2024:

“Republican governor of Virginia Glenn Youngkin told reporters that he was ‘incredibly appreciative of the rapid response and cooperation from the federal team at FEMA.’ Asheville, North Carolina, mayor Esther Manheimer told CNBC, ‘We have support from outside organizations, other fire departments sending us resources, the federal government as well. So it’s all-hands-on-deck, and it is a well-coordinated effort, but it is so enormous….’”

And the lies persist. 


But my favorite bit of nonsense, because it’s so obvious, was in my email, with an attachment I did not open. “Good morning. When there are ambiguous conditions around a contract, Agreement-Number… can be used in the event that it is difficult to determine whether it was created, expired without being resolved, or is no longer valid as a result of the contract having expired. so long”

Kamala and DonOLD

Nikki Haley in spring 2024: djt unhinged, unqualified to be president, diminished.

It should be no surprise to anyone who has read this blog more than three times that, in the Presidential race between Kamala and DonOLD, I’m voting for the South Asian woman who also knows she’s black. 

On ABC News’s This Week for Sunday, September 8, 2024, just before the  debate, former Wyoming Congresswoman Liz Cheney chose between Kamala and DonOLD. She spoke with ABC’s Jonathan Karl. This is just some of the interview, which I recommend.

CHENEY: Not only am I not voting for Donald Trump, but I will be voting for Kamala Harris. Donald Trump, if he is re-elected, will be far more dangerous than we have ever seen before. Dick Cheney [her father] will be voting for Kamala Harris.

KARL: The former vice president’s statement endorsing Harris offered an especially harsh view of Donald Trump. “In our nation’s 248-year history, there has never been an individual who is a greater threat to our republic than Donald Trump. He tried to steal the last election using lies and violence to keep himself in power after the voters had rejected him. He can never be trusted with power again.”

CHENEY: Donald Trump presents a challenge and fundamental threat to the republic. Somebody is willing to use violence to attempt to seize power and stay in power—someone who represents unrecoverable catastrophe. And we must do everything possible to ensure he’s not re-elected.

Harris as Reagan?

 CHENEY: I have never viewed this as a policy election. If you look at Vice President Harris’ speech at the Democratic Convention, it is a speech that Ronald Reagan could have given. It’s a speech that George Bush could have given. It’s an embrace and an understanding of the exceptional nature of this great nation. A love of America. A recognition that America is a special place. A recognition that we all have to work together to ensure that.

And you contrast that with what we hear from Donald Trump daily, that America is a failing nation, that America is a laughing stock. The trash-talking of the United States of America is very much part of the message that Donald Trump is pushing.

I think it’s important for people to recognize he’s not a conservative. Embracing global tariffs is fundamentally anti-conservative. It will choke off global trade and likely lead us down the path that we’ve seen before, a depression.

The important thing for people to remember is that he can do it alone. He does not need Congress if he were to be re-elected, to impose those massive tariffs that will kill the American and the global economy.

Kamala’s coalition

CHENEY: I think, from a policy perspective, it is very important to recognize that [Kamala] understands that this election is going to require a coalition of people from across the political spectrum supporting her, and that also necessitates an understanding that you’ve got to govern for all of those people. And on top of all of that, the Republicans have nominated somebody who you know is depraved. So, the choice, in my view, is not a close one.

When you look at national security policy, there are certainly areas where I disagree with the Biden administration. However, regarding fundamental alliances and the importance of NATO, for example, we’ve seen a sea change. We now have a Republican Party that is embracing isolationism, that is embracing Putin.

Nikki voters

KARL: There was a lot of talk during the primaries of the Nikki Haley voters, and some states seemed like even when she stopped running, almost a third of Republican voters were looking for an alternative to Trump and voting for Nikki Haley. She’s now saying she is “on standby” to campaign for Donald Trump to help him get reelected.

She’s also, of course, called him unhinged, unqualified to be president, diminished. What do you make of Nikki Haley’s position on this?

CHENEY: I can’t understand her position on this in any principled way. I think the things she said while running in the primary are true.

And those of us who are conservative, those of us who believe in fidelity to the Constitution, have a responsibility and a duty to recognize that this is not about partisan politics, and the country is going to need to rebuild a true conservative movement when we’re through this election cycle…

But this November, casting a vote for Donald Trump or writing someone in means that you’ve decided in too many instances what so many elected Republicans have made, which is to abandon the Constitution, to tell yourself that this is just simply a partisan choice. That’s not what we’re facing this time around.

No guardrails

CHENEY: It’s personal to me when I listen to fellow Republicans in the past say things to me like, it’s fine, there are guardrails. He can’t do that much damage. It’s just simply not true. 

KARL: Well, on those guardrails, we had the Supreme Court declare essentially that a president has immunity for anything that can be in any way defined as an official act. What does it mean to the possibility of a second Trump administration?

CHENEY: Well, it obviously makes the danger even greater. But when you look at what Donald Trump could do with the levers of power, the extent to which he’s already said he will not abide by the rulings of the courts. Our courts can’t enforce their own rulings. If a president won’t abide by the rulings of the courts, the rule of law disintegrates immediately. He’s made clear that he will, for example, pardon the January 6th rioters.

And now, a few links

Let’s check his references. The Dangers of djt, From Those
Who Know Him

Judge Unseals New Evidence in Federal Election Case Against djt

Questions for djt

Project 2025, Etc. — What’s Really Going On

Remember the women who accused djt? They call themselves the Sisterhood of the Strange Sorority

He’s Jumped the Shark

djt Promised to Release His Medical Records. He Still Won’t Do It.

If elected again, he would become the oldest president by the end of his term. Yet he is refusing to disclose even basic health information.

’60 Minutes’ Sets Presidential Candidates Interview Special, Only For djt to Bail

djt’s “Vastly Overpriced” $100,000 “Swiss Watch” Is Probably Made in China, Experts Say

I Learned So Much I Didn’t Know From Vance in the Debate. Did you know that President Trump saved Obamacare? (Ha!)

Blank Space (Donald’s Version) – A Randy Rainbow Song Parody

Thank djt for the Constitution lessons

official acts

I want to thank djt for teaching the American people Constitution lessons. Even before the election of 2016, people were wondering whether, if he had read the document, did he understand it.

As The Nation noted earlier this year,  he’s brazenly violated parts of the Constitution, “including the emoluments clause of Article 1, Section 6, and the appropriations clause of Article 1, Section 9. The foreign emolument section states that, without congressional assent, neither the president nor other office holders can ‘accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.’ Yet, as the Democrats on the House Oversight Committee documented, ‘Trump’s businesses received at least $7.8 million in payments from foreign governments and government-backed entities from 20 countries.'”

Americans now have a better sense of how impeachment works. There had been only one impeachment (Bill Clinton) in over a century and a half. With djt,  we had two in less than 14 months. People now know that impeachment means indictment and not conviction. He was impeached in 2019 over extortion of the Ukrainian president.

20210106

Then, in early 2021, he was impeached over his actions on January 6. Of course, the Senate chose not to convict him in both cases. In the latter situation, they decided it wasn’t necessary because he was no longer going to be President. After the effects of January 6, wasn’t it clear after being rebuked by members of Congress that he would never be running for public office again? 

There was a conversation about whether Vice President Mike Pence and members of the US cabinet might invoke Amendment 25 to have the then-president removed from office because his actions were not in keeping with what a president ought to do both before and especially after Jan 6.

Speaking of January 6: I mentioned to someone that, in 2025, Kamala Harris would be titularly in charge of certifying the November 5, 2024, Presidential vote. They asked if it had happened before with a Presidential candidate in that role. Of course, most recently, Al Gore when he lost to Dubya in 2000.

Still, I am an old political science major. I had all but forgotten the certification of the election the previous November because it was pro forma before 2021, when someone fomented a riot.

“Even conservative lawyers J. Michael Luttig, Peter Keisler, Larry Thompson, Stuart Gerson, and Donald Ayer have argued in their amicus brief in the case that ‘Trump incited the threat and use of violent force as his last opportunity to stop the peaceful transfer of executive power.’ They state unequivocally that he ‘had the intent that the armed mob, at the very least, threaten physical force on January 6, 2021, in response to his speech on the Ellipse.'”

Constitutional when it suits him

Less than two years ago, djt suggested on “Truth” Social “for the termination of the Constitution” by overturning the 2020 election and reinstating him to power. 

On Feb. 8, 2024, the Supreme Court [heard] arguments in “a potentially historic case that could affect former President Donald Trump’s efforts to run for election this year. The case, Donald J. Trump v. Norma Anderson [turned] on an interpretation of Section 3 of the 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, known as the Disqualification Clause, and its language barring certain former elected and appointed officials from holding office if they took part in an insurrection. SCOTUS determined he could not be banned from the Colorado primary ballot. The nine justices ruled that only Congress can enforce the 14th Amendment’s provisions against federal officials and candidates.

His SCOTUS friends also ruled that he has ‘absolute immunity’ for official acts and offered a broad description of what that means. Although Jack Smith has re-introduced a tighter set of indictments, it’s really difficult to convict a president for his actions while he’s in office.

A couple of people I know IRL think schools should do a better job teaching civics. Well, maybe, but djt is doing a pretty good job on his own.

Let us eat cake
Happy Birthday, Constitution – Family Day, September 17, 2006. A1, Washington, D.C.

Per the National Archives: “Twenty years ago, Congress passed a law recognizing September 17 as Constitution Day.  On that date in 1787, the delegates at the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia put their signatures on the Constitution of the United States.  Local celebrations of Constitution Day started over 100 years ago, but it didn’t become federal law until 2004.” 

Happy Constitution Day.

August rambling: Sanewashing

PsychoPAC

From School Librarian to Activist: ‘The Hate Level and the Vitriol Is Unreal.’ Amid a surge in book bans nationwide, the librarian Amanda Jones was targeted by vicious threats. So she decided to fight back.
Healthy Black women with low risk factors were far more likely to get C-sections than white women with similar medical histories, a large new study found.

New FTC Data Shows Massive Increase in Losses to Bitcoin ATM Scams

Ed Kranepool, longest-tenured Met and 1969 WS champ, dies at 79

What Happens If You’re Not “Disabled Enough” For the Paralympics?

How Costco hacked the American shopping psyche

The right to disconnect has started, allowing Australians to stop responding to emails and calls after hours.

Turf War: For 148 years, the Toronto Lawn Tennis Club was an ivy-covered bastion of civility with a roster of like-minded, blue-blooded members. Then, an old-money-versus-new-money clash erupted.

Trolley, the online journal of the NYS Writers Institute. Issue 7: Summer Camp

Now I Know: The Art Teacher With No Class and Ohio’s Admission Problem and A Shark and a Murder, But Not the Way You Think
Orange

The Word Of The Week: Sanewashing. “If Biden made a flub, that became the headline. It eclipsed whatever else he had been trying to say. Why isn’t Trump being covered the same way? When Trump says something insane or incoherent, that should be the news. It’s not just smoke that a reporter needs to blow away to reveal some underlying policy point that may or may not actually exist. The nominee of a major party regularly says things that are insane or incoherent. That’s what’s significant. That — and not whatever policy a reporter can interpret from his ravings — is the news in these Trump events.”

See, for instance: ‘Can’t Even Find a Complete Sentence’: Trump’s ‘Gobbledygook’ Childcare ‘Solution’ Slammed.
Thumbs Up: The Story of No-Context Trump. Is he a ghoul or a sociopath?
Or, in the words of George Conway’s PsychoPAC – “Voters have forgotten one important fact: Trump is f**king nuts.”

A Week in His Declining Spiral

The debate

This is precisely the debate analogy I thought of: Kamala Harris Floats Like a Butterfly, Stings Like a Bee. 

Kimberly Atkins-Stohr writes in the Boston Globe: “His bar was on the floor. All he had to do was not look crazy. He failed. I didn’t think it could get worse than Trump lobbing lies like Democrats supporting post-birth abortions or immigrants eating house pets in the Heartland. But I was wrong. Trump said that on Jan. 6, 2021, after he sicced an armed mob on the US Capitol: ‘Nobody on the other side was killed.’ Elected officials carrying out their constitutional duties are not ‘the other side.’ He proved himself unfit in less than an hour.”

Per Vanity Fair: “Ever since he flirted with running for president in 1988, Trump has relied on his mentor Roy Cohn’s three rules of winning: attack, attack, attack; admit nothing, deny everything; and always claim victory. ‘I thought that was my best Debate, EVER,’ Trump posted on Truth Social about 20 minutes after leaving the stage.”

FactChecking the Harris-Trump Debate

Harris-Walz Campaign Responds to Trump’s “I Hate Taylor Swift” Comments With Singer’s Song Lyrics

 

Also: 

I believe the delay in sentencing djt in the hush-money case deprives him of another chance to play the victim before the election.

RedState asks the Biggest Traitors to the Conservative Cause – the McCain Family or the Cheney Family? (No, I’m not linking to that.) My answer is the Congressional MAGA enablers (Stefanik, Jordan, Cotton, Cruz, Graham, et  al.)

Speaking of enabling: Evangelical leader Lance Wallnau pitches djt to followers as divinely chosen for the presidency.

MUSIC

Pale September – Fiona Apple

Sérgio Mendes obituary: Brazilian musician who popularised bossa nova worldwide. Fool On The Hill – Sérgio Mendes & Brasil ’66

Will Jennings, Oscar Winner for “My Heart Will Go On” and “Tears of Heaven, Dies at 80. I remember him mostly for his work with Steve Winwood, such as Valerie.

James Darren, ‘Gidget’ Surfer and Cop on ‘T.J. Hooker,’ Dies at 88. He sang, too. Her Royal Majesty – James Darren

Music Television Is (Way)Back!

New Chautauqua – Peter Sprague

Symphonic Suite from On The Waterfront by Leonard Bernstein

Hangover Game – MJ Lenderman

Phil Donohue Show (1990) -the original cast of A Chorus Line, just before the show would close

Anacreon overture by Luigi Cherubini

Favorite Songs By Favorite Artists (Series Three) #21: Robyn Hitchcock

Dream A Little Dream Of Me – MonaLisa Twins

Coverville 1501: Nina Persson Cover Story and Greg Kihn Tribute and  1502: Cover Stories for P!nk and Jack Black

Anthem – Leonard Cohen

Save It For Later – Harvey Danger

Can’t Find My Way Back Home – Peter Sprague featuring Leonard Patton

Darker Than Death  – Indigo De Souza

The opening number from the 1994 Tony Awards

What’s Love Got To Do With It – Tina Turner

You Can’t Stop The Beat – Ambassadors of Harmony

K-Chuck Radio: The Surgeon General won’t like this…

Bishop’s Countdown from Aliens by James Horner

Green Day: Wake Me Up When September Ends

Roll call

Florida — I Won’t Back Down –  Florida’s own Tom Petty, and used by Florida politicians for decades, including, most recently, Gov. Ron DeSantis.

Guam — Espresso – Sabrina Carpenter.

Hawaii — “24k Magic” by Hawaii’s most successful pop artist, Bruno Mars.

Idaho — Private Idaho – the B-52’s, who are not from Idaho.

Illinois — Sirius – the Alan Parsons Project, which played while the Chicago Bulls were introduced during the Michael Jordan era of the 1990s.

Indiana — Don’t Stop Till You Get Enough – Indiana’s own Michael Jackson. [It’s on Off The Wall, MJ’s best album.]

Iowa — Celebration – Kool & the Gang.

Kansas — Carry On Wayward Son by, um, Kansas. I LOVE this song.

Maine — Shut Up And Dance – Walk the Moon.

Maryland — Respect – Aretha Franklin.

Massachusetts — I’m Shipping Up To Boston – Dropkick Murphys, a loud-and-proud Massachusetts punk band that regularly wears Boston sports jerseys while playing.

Minnesota — 1999 -Prince, Minnesota’s own, well, prince.

Mississippi — Twistin’ the Night Away – Sam Cooke, the “King of Soul,” who helped expand the genre in Mississippi.

Missouri — Good Luck, Babe – Missouri’s Chappell Roan.

Montana — American Woman – Lenny Kravitz (originally by Guess Who, a Canadian band).

Ramblin' with Roger
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